S2E5: The Partners in Data That Turn Numbers into Fairytales

This is one of the most fun I had on the podcast. My guest brought some originality to this episode by singing the intro tune for us! 

My guests this week, are Alex Kolokolov and Natalia Kiseleva, a brilliant duo who are leading the mission to unlock the magic of data for kids as they transform data into a playful tool for creativity and empowerment. Discover from our chat, how storytelling and art make data accessible and fun, inspiring the next generation of data-savvy kids. 

From their vibrant children's books to an engaging competition where everyone is a winner (or super winners), learn how Alex and Natalia, inspired by their own beloved kids, nurture curiosity and critical thinking among our children in a data-driven world.

I hope parents and educators will find this particular episode enlightening and inspiring! 

Explore more: Data2Kids Award | Data2Speak

Read Natalia's insightful work through her article in the Nightingale Journal here.

Transcript

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Alex (00:04)
Ta-da-bam! Ta-da-bam!

Dun

Shazeera.Zawawi (00:16)
Thank you, Alex. And that will be our new intro for my podcast. ⁓ So we haven't even started a conversation yet, but I felt that this is going to be a very interesting conversation with two very, I mean, crazy. Well, if you add me, three crazy unhinged people who love data so much and who wants to talk about their work and their passion around data.

Alex (00:34)
crazy.

Shazeera.Zawawi (00:48)
And I'm so happy for two things First, two people on my podcast. This is the first. So if it's going to be a chaotic experience, let it be. ⁓ And secondly is really to share about something that I wanted to talk about for a long time, but I haven't met the right people yet is really to talk about data, children, art,

So to all my listeners, today we are with two powerhouse, behind Data to Speak, they are Natalia Kiselewa, who is an independent data artist and teacher. Hello, Natalia.

Natalia Kiseleva (01:21)
Hello.

Yes, hello everyone! I'm glad to be here with you!

Shazeera.Zawawi (01:28)
you

So she's a podcast, ⁓ regular. this is nothing for her. And, secondly is Alex color call off. Did I get it right? And, is it color column.

Alex (01:41)
That's okay.

⁓ It's definitely correct. Call off.

Shazeera.Zawawi (01:51)
Definitely correct.

Kolokolof. And he is the founder of Data to Speak, also an author of many books on professional data visualizations. and he's also the mobilizer and the person behind what we're going to talk about today along with Natalia, which is this interesting effort for kids around data.

So if I can go first to Alex now, Alex, you are somebody who seems to have a lot of experience in business intelligence, enterprise solutions. So what was the turning point for you to suddenly, pivot from that and go into the world of data for a different audience, for children?

Alex (02:38)
⁓ the turning point was when I became a father. And by the third time when I became a father, my older kids grew up, and I started to explain what am I doing. And I usually explain that I'm turning numbers into pictures, and... ⁓

⁓ My older daughter Tanya ⁓ was curious why people pay me for turning numbers into pictures because it's so easy and she can do it also

Shazeera.Zawawi (03:27)
wow.

Alex (03:28)
And I started explaining ⁓ why it's so tricky and there are lot of rules and best practices and pitfalls and some magic. And finally we developed ⁓ some magic characters for each ⁓ chart and it was an idea.

Shazeera.Zawawi (03:29)
Mm-hmm.

Alex (03:56)
which I was carrying about a year or two before we finally committed with Natalie that we start working over the book. And without this partnership this book could never be published. So...

This project started thanks to Natalie and thanks to my kids

Shazeera.Zawawi (04:34)
That's amazing. That's a beautiful story. Natalia, I come to learn that you also have a daughter. Is it still one or is it three like Alex? Alex, please do the whole thing.

Natalia Kiseleva (04:40)
Yes, a little one, five years. A little one, only one, sorry,

I'm not so big parents.

Alex (04:47)
so

Shazeera.Zawawi (04:51)
So would you say that your inspiration is similar to Alex or is it different or you have another way how you come to this point?

Natalia Kiseleva (04:56)
⁓

I think, you know, before going to the data visualization, I was like an engineer, like process automation, energy plants, really, ⁓ really hard stuff was drawing with terms and the cabinet drawing, really. But it was so boring for me. was into some process automation. I was beginning to work with reports, with data, with data, with charts.

And then I saw like, wow, what beautiful charts, beautiful dashboards. It was a thing tableau. And then it was like, my career, like, okay, it's engineers fun, ⁓ I love to like make something beautiful with data. And I begin to work with Alex. I begin to create dashboards, training, et cetera, et cetera. And, but still I like was, I don't know.

I was hungry for beauty in data and I touched the topic like data art. And because I was a newbie in the field, like it was in 2018, and I begin to like, it consumed data about this field, about data visualization really fast. And to express myself somehow and my, know.

my inspiration about the field. I began to draw comics about the data visualization, like characters, fun little chibis, little persons, with jokes, with something about data visualization rules, about data visualization tools. So it was so much fun for me and somehow it became ⁓ viral or popular.

Alex (06:30)
you

Natalia Kiseleva (06:37)
And yes, after that, go to the like data art field, like more beauty, more beauty in data, more something colorful, sparkful and interesting. Yes. And because ⁓ I love to create a characters, I had the characters for diagram, like was a person, like each diagram is a person with features, with some characteristic. Yes. And when Alex, he knows that I had a kid, he saw it. And he was like,

Shazeera.Zawawi (06:55)
Yeah, I saw that. That's amazing.

Mm-hmm.

Natalia Kiseleva (07:07)
let's make a book for a kid. it wasn't my like inside idea, but I so love to create characters and I think that the story and the book is so cool even for kids because my was too little to ask like, hey, mother, what are you doing here? She just grabbed all my stuff and play with it. And I was like, my God, it's a bit, it's a pencils. Please leave it to me, please.

Shazeera.Zawawi (07:23)
Yeah

Alex (07:23)
Thank

I was like...

Natalia Kiseleva (07:30)
Yes, and so I love the idea so much and ⁓ before that I had the experience of reading like a really big fat book about how to draw children's book. And they're like, I have a little experience, so let's do it somehow together. I wasn't the illustrator of our book, but I made like, they know ⁓ the structure, yeah, the storyboard, the structures, sketches, design of characters, all the fun stuff. And I was like the... ⁓

Shazeera.Zawawi (07:51)
Storyboards, yeah, the structure.

Alex (07:54)
you

Natalia Kiseleva (08:00)
it? Illustration editor maybe. So it was much fun, like a big amount of work of course. I touch a text a little, I think two or three ⁓ parts of the book I draw like Alex, don't like this ending. Alex, need other ending, more you know, more something. I don't like that evil

Shazeera.Zawawi (08:06)
Yeah.

you

Natalia Kiseleva (08:18)
person. Let's make it more with the friendship. Yeah, so it was really curubulation.

Shazeera.Zawawi (08:21)
That's the beauty of the collaboration.

Alex (08:22)
Okay.

Natalia Kiseleva (08:27)
because Alex was like we have to do this and this and I read I wrote this part and I was like I will edit this part and I want this person be like this so yes it was nice because I think in one person it's it's hard to write a book especially with an illustration for so many

Shazeera.Zawawi (08:44)
Yeah.

Natalia Kiseleva (08:44)
like

you have like two tasks near yourself like to draw to write how so I think it's great that it's a ⁓

Shazeera.Zawawi (08:50)
Exactly.

Natalia Kiseleva (08:53)
It's the two of us here inside of this problem.

Shazeera.Zawawi (08:57)
No, I think your book, Christine and the Magic Chart, really, really is super inspiring because I am a comic artist myself and I've done that. I've published my own comics and I have to do the text, the storyline, the storyboarding, the penciling, the coloring, and it's a lot of work. And it's always good to share that creative process with another person. And what is interesting about the two of you is this, like you seems to bring the sparkle.

Natalia Kiseleva (09:04)
⁓

It's so cool.

Shazeera.Zawawi (09:27)
the whimsical, the art, the design, and maybe Alex bring in the structure, the timeline, the date line. that's budget, which is important, right? Yeah. So what do you think is, and if I can ask this, and you can be very honest, of course.

Alex (09:32)
Maybe.

Timeline

Timeline, budget and all the boring stuff.

Natalia Kiseleva (09:43)
Yes.

Oh, it's a boring stuff, Thank you.

Shazeera.Zawawi (09:55)
as long as you don't get into a fight after this. But what would be the best part about collaborating with each other? And what would be one of the biggest challenges of collaborating for this book? Since you two complement each other so well, I'm just curious to know.

Natalia Kiseleva (10:14)
I think I could start ⁓ to the first part, like what is the best part? Because you know, the Alex is that little but really strong bot who just could push the big and maybe very nice but really slow and somehow ⁓ relaxed a big bot after his idea because he could just spark the idea and wanted to... ⁓

Alex (10:14)
Okay.

Shazeera.Zawawi (10:14)
Anyone wants to start?

Alex (10:36)
Okay.

Natalia Kiseleva (10:43)
go to the life, think. I think it's a nice quality to put the ideas to life, not just, know, imagination, ideas everywhere, let's discuss it later, sometime, maybe next year. He was like, okay, let's do it. We'll do it like this and that. Come on. So I think it's really important part of the process.

Shazeera.Zawawi (10:51)
Yeah, yeah, I am the friend.

Alex (10:52)
Okay.

Shazeera.Zawawi (10:58)
No.

And for Alex, like, what would be the, I wouldn't say it just, when I say challenge, it doesn't necessarily have to be negative. It could also be something that you finally discover about one another, you know, through this collaboration, you're like, so this is how Natalia works, for instance.

Alex (11:21)
So for me, this unexpected insight during our collaboration was that Natalie convinced me that there shouldn't be a villain

in our book because ⁓ I created like data swamp, ⁓ evil tables, dirty data. But finally, ⁓ Natalie convinced me that ⁓ we don't kill anyone. We don't hit anyone. We just clean data from tables and they become good and help our heroes to escape from ⁓

Natalia Kiseleva (11:55)
Love.

Alex (12:04)
that scary tower and get back home.

Natalia Kiseleva (12:08)
spoilers.

It's a spoilers.

Shazeera.Zawawi (12:11)
Spoiler! Okay, so basically you want to bring an element which I'm very familiar with coming from the comics world, which is you have to have villains. The arc of the story, right? The hero's journey. They have to go through a process, a transformative process, and one of it is to address their adversities. But then Natalia may be proofing something that's more...

Natalia Kiseleva (12:13)
What else?

Shazeera.Zawawi (12:41)
you know, something that can turn into something nice at the end because this is a children's book and I guess the idea is also to keep it peaceful, to keep it promoting positive values maybe.

Alex (12:53)
Yes, and Natalie

fulfilled it with ⁓ this female energy. ⁓

Shazeera.Zawawi (13:00)
Of course. I love this. I love that he used the word female energy. So, listeners, the book, Christine and the Magic Chart is also a very feminist book. It's a very feminine driven book. So you have to buy it if you want to have this feminine voice in understanding data. no, no, I'm sorry. But coming back to ⁓ what you say, right?

Natalia Kiseleva (13:00)
my god, female energy!

Don't shoot him!

Alex (13:06)
you

Shazeera.Zawawi (13:28)
how do you reconcile on the target for the book in terms of the age of kids that should read the book?

Alex (13:38)
So I targeted this book ⁓ to the age of my ⁓ older daughters when they were 6 and 8.

Shazeera.Zawawi (13:53)
and eight.

Alex (13:53)
Yes, but it was ⁓ already three, four years ago. So by the moment when the was published, they weren't interested in this because they are already teens. They are 12 and 10, but they are too grown up for this funny stuff. But my younger son, ⁓ yesterday he celebrated his seventh.

Shazeera.Zawawi (14:13)
and

Alex (14:23)
and ⁓ he was so engaged last year and we were reading together electronic book then ⁓ reading and drawing paper book and I realized that this age of six and seven is the best for entry and also seven as I targeted

earlier at eight years. So I was looking at my kids and their reaction when we discussed characters and finally when we were reading this book.

Shazeera.Zawawi (14:57)
8

Right. that's, yeah, sorry.

Alex (15:10)
So what I mean,

of course, there was no market research. No, I just was looking at my kids.

Shazeera.Zawawi (15:16)
Right.

Yeah, No, it's a reflection on your own conversation with your kids. And I think that's also very powerful. You bring your own personal experience into the process of conception of the book. And Natalia, do you think that after this book, ⁓ are you planning to, I don't know, write

Natalia Kiseleva (15:33)
Yes.

Shazeera.Zawawi (15:41)
write another one which is most suitable for an older kids or do you plan to know cater to that you know market or to that age above age?

Natalia Kiseleva (15:51)
⁓

You know, we have like a plan of trio, like a first book, second book is more like ⁓ exercise book, and the third book for more grown up kids, maybe two or three years older. But of course, who knows how many time we'll spend on this project. Yes. And I wanted to add about the years, like, yes, while we were making the book, my little one from three years old, became like five years old. And she was like, mommy, this is a

Shazeera.Zawawi (16:01)
Mm-hmm.

Right.

Natalia Kiseleva (16:22)
⁓ Barchard Barney and this is a round diagram and she brought me to read her this book like every night and I read it and read it and again I was like my god please stop it I couldn't do it more and that was just like closing my eyes and tell it for her by memory because I make it a little shorter and so yes I'm struggling a little bit now with this book because she loves it and it's like a favorite one

Shazeera.Zawawi (16:32)
Call me.

Yes!

We have to...

Natalia Kiseleva (16:51)
This is scary for me.

Shazeera.Zawawi (16:51)
I think that Atosfi has to make, you know, to publish more then. Have to write more books for the kids now.

Natalia Kiseleva (16:57)
Maybe.

Alex (16:58)
Now you have

a reason to write a new book.

Natalia Kiseleva (17:02)
So I will struggle again, yes?

Shazeera.Zawawi (17:05)
Yes, I think that's going to be an interesting idea. I was in a workshop last two weeks, but it was by accident. Somebody from Chennai, India contacted me on LinkedIn and then she asked me to do a virtual workshop for the children in her class. And the idea was to train or to give an awareness to the kids.

about how to use cartoon for change. It's very, it's slightly different because this is like how do you use cartoon as a medium for change, right? And even though it's just for, you know, cartoons, I did tell them that one of the ingredient to start drawing a cartoon is to have the right information or data. So I tried to inject a bit of, you know, a spirit of data.

And then they tell me what they understand about data. And I think it's a very interesting interaction because in the end, they're not drawing data. They're drawing cartoons that comes from data. So I am curious to know from both of you, like after the book is out and I hear it's doing very well in the market, if you can tell me more about it, what are the reactions that you are getting from your readers or the parents about the book?

Natalia Kiseleva (18:27)
Sometimes parents love book too and they read it for themselves like I want to buy this book for me not for little kids because I love it. So cute.

Alex (18:27)
⁓

Shazeera.Zawawi (18:36)
That's such a parent move.

That's such a parent's move. Alex, I think you want to say something.

Alex (18:42)
Yes, I have a specific answer. ⁓ This spring ⁓ I applied a project to the Y Combinator. You know, this famous startup accelerator. ⁓ And ⁓ this ⁓ big data AI ⁓ project was based ⁓ on our book.

Shazeera.Zawawi (19:03)
Mm-hmm.

Alex (19:08)
We developed a demo of a learning platform ⁓ based not just on teaching model, but on challenging model when ⁓ families ⁓ make teams and compete with other families ⁓ in their school, neighborhood, other local data, these competitions.

And ⁓ parents spend this meaningful time with their kids preparing training their data visualization skills. And ⁓ this gamification is built in with learning process. ⁓ This is ⁓ example of another pivot for this model. ⁓ To be honest, this project wasn't selected.

Shazeera.Zawawi (19:55)
Nice.

Alex (20:08)
to the Y incubator, ⁓ but maybe I will ⁓ raise the funding. It's another fund, or maybe we will make it for our ⁓ own investment.

Shazeera.Zawawi (20:28)
Nice. So there's other projects are coming out or being developed or extending from this book. And I think that's a very interesting way how the book grows or inspire other efforts too. So what about Natalia? Like is there any, you know, feedback or response that you hear from others? And especially I'm curious about the parents as well, because this might not be a common type of book that they buy for their kids.

could be the first time they buy a book about data for their kids. So what are the responses that you've heard so far?

Natalia Kiseleva (21:04)
Yes, I'm trying to remember the reviews from the readers, but I think I them last time, I think two months ago, and I forgot to refresh the data. But I remember the really great feedback from our community, because before they make data to kids a word. I I mentioned before. Yes, we made... Yes, yes. It's like a little bridge for this topic. Yes.

Shazeera.Zawawi (21:17)
Uh-huh.

Yeah, yeah which we will talk about after this yes. Yes totally.

Natalia Kiseleva (21:34)
We

had the same contest on the local audience, like our community, and I think it was so nice, so warm, and we have local experts to help us, and I made this beautiful stream for kids about candies with Legos, with drawings and stuff, but after the contest, or maybe during the contest and the practice we made, one father wrote me, like, thank you so much for this activity, because now I could...

Shazeera.Zawawi (21:40)
Hmm.

is.

Natalia Kiseleva (22:04)
communicate with my daughter. Before that I had some problems and troubles with that, we couldn't like contact. But during this initiative, during this award and educational process before it, we could discuss these topics, we could make something together. It was like, it was so big experience for him. This review touched me so much because sometimes...

Shazeera.Zawawi (22:23)
That is so nice. Cool.

Natalia Kiseleva (22:29)
father had really bad connect with kids if they're like working hard, couldn't connect with the family. I think that was that situation. So I think it was like a little touching, maybe sad story, but with happy ending and I was so happy for them. Somehow I remember this one.

Shazeera.Zawawi (22:32)
Hmm.

Mm-hmm.

⁓ Yeah,

mean you would imagine that data would be the last thing you could be like a connecting point you want to talk to your kid.

Natalia Kiseleva (22:55)
Yes, yes, because sometimes it's a personal data,

Alex (22:58)
Definitely.

Natalia Kiseleva (22:58)
family data, data about some hobbies. So you could connect with the kid about the topic the kid loves. And if adults love the data, so you could just share your passion with your kid and kid will share his or her passion with an adult. I think it's one of the mission of the project to connect them, connect families.

Shazeera.Zawawi (23:01)
yeah. Yes.

That's

so cool. Yeah, because it's interesting how you sort of transform how data is perceived in that sense, or the role of data as well, like as a connector, especially at a family ⁓ level, right? So I try to do something like that with my daughter here at home. I have a daughter, She's 20 years old now. And so we use Lego because we both are Lego. ⁓

Alex (23:45)
Geeks.

Shazeera.Zawawi (23:46)
Our Lego nerds, you can say that. So we have like three kind of three jars in the kitchen on the table where we have split the colors of Lego and we fill it based on the feeling of the day. So you can tell that if it's a day where we fight or we have an argument how the jar with the red and the yellow and the orange just grow.

Natalia Kiseleva (23:48)
I'm gonna back.

Shazeera.Zawawi (24:11)
And it's interesting because then we start to express ourselves using this more and more often, know, like things like drawing and she's also very visual. So we are seeing more and more how sometimes talking verbally might not just be the only way, right? But you use this sort of activities to connect with your children, with your family. So I think that is really, really, really, really cool.

Alex (24:18)
Okay.

Shazeera.Zawawi (24:42)
I'm just curious as well, fine, have, you know, you have write a very magical book. Is there something in the pipeline, maybe? I don't know, because Alex, you write textbooks or you write books and manuals about data visualization. Do you think you would like to write such manual, but, you know, scale it down to, but to make it child friendly one day? I am just.

Alex (24:54)
you

you

Shazeera.Zawawi (25:11)
wondering, you

know, other than storybooks.

Alex (25:16)
So ⁓ I think that we will make a next step, but it might be not a book, ⁓ because in our modern world it really can be an app or an AI assistant.

Shazeera.Zawawi (25:26)
Cheers.

game.

Alex (25:41)
board games and maybe I'm interested to try something new because I already wrote five books. Maybe I'm not so inspired to write another one manual, another one step-by-step guide.

And I think that making something new for kids, it would be a professional challenge for me. And how to explain more sophisticated and technical tools. And I think that it will be real ⁓ art and designing process ⁓ that AI can't make.

Shazeera.Zawawi (26:05)
Yeah.

Alex (26:35)
and really this will be a ⁓ process of art.

What a human doing?

Shazeera.Zawawi (26:44)
I can imagine you don't want to write manuals anymore. And then for Natalie, you have one of my favorite community online, which is flowers and numbers, ⁓ because you highlight all this ⁓ wonderful, different interpretation of data

how do you connect the two worlds?

how do you bring that branding into the world with children, right? With kids. And are you planning to sort of, you know, have this universe together in the future?

Natalia Kiseleva (27:20)
think it wasn't intentional, but yes, when I began to explore the world of data visualization, of course, I see the practice of data art and flow just put me there somehow. Yes, and when I try to analyze it, because I'm an engineer, an analyst, and I begin to explore the type of the project, structure, their tools, their inspirations, the topics, et cetera, et cetera.

Shazeera.Zawawi (27:33)
you

Alex (27:39)
Thank

Natalia Kiseleva (27:48)
I could find that in the world of different types of data visualization projects like business intelligence, data storytelling, data journalistic, infographics, data art, data art has this skill, this feature that it could go through the mind blocks. It could go through the emotion and touch people, touch person ⁓ from his like, I don't know, his mind blocks.

Alex (27:51)
Thank

you

you

Natalia Kiseleva (28:16)
some limits, broke some limits and so easily because they use different techniques. They try to show the data in this, you know, in a data-homonism way like Giorgio Lupi's talent. When you try to show each person, each like individuality, not like the aggregation bar chart about death. No, it's each death is like something. It's not just something aggregatable.

Shazeera.Zawawi (28:31)
Yes.

Yeah.

Alex (28:39)
.

Natalia Kiseleva (28:45)
So I think this empathy, this detailization and of course the visual metaphors of flowers, diamonds, sparkling things, trees and everything, it's eye-catching. So don't think that data art is like something niche. Yes, it's niche, but it could go viral, it could grab attention, you could see it in your feed, but boring chart couldn't do it.

Alex (28:48)
Okay. Okay.

Shazeera.Zawawi (29:00)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Natalia Kiseleva (29:14)
boring chart, couldn't grab attention, it won't be

remembering so well. So we should use these special features of data art if we want to achieve some specific goals like grab attention, I catch, et cetera. So I think it's really important to understand the structure of the process. So it's not like something, yes. And about the kit award, somehow before the event, during the event, especially in the first try in our local community,

Shazeera.Zawawi (29:20)
Yeah.

Alex (29:21)
Thank

Shazeera.Zawawi (29:27)
Yeah, totally.

Alex (29:29)
Thank you. All right.

Natalia Kiseleva (29:44)
I began to make streams for the kids, showing them some

Alex (29:46)
Thank

Natalia Kiseleva (29:47)
exercise so they could try working with data themselves, collecting a small data around and make it in a beautiful way. And so I wanted to be fun. And somehow we begin to draw flowers from data with, I don't know, color it with the pencils, with markers, like trees from the data. And it was a data art because I know about this technique. I know it was engaging technique.

And with kids, it was like a really nice tool and instrument ⁓ to grab their attention. So they want to make a practice themselves because it's fun, because it's bright, interesting and colorful, not because the adults say so.

Shazeera.Zawawi (30:29)
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.

Natalia Kiseleva (30:31)
It

wasn't intentional, just somehow when I begin to think about a fun practice for kids, yes, bar charts from candy, it's okay, but next level like drawing. And then it was like that art practice.

Shazeera.Zawawi (30:43)
Yeah.

And I think it also works for kids because of ⁓ their span of attention, ⁓ what they are drawn to, how do you ⁓ transfer information for them to understand. So all of this needs to be put into consideration as well when you are working with children or you're trying to teach them something like data, for instance.

Natalia Kiseleva (30:53)
Yes.

Shazeera.Zawawi (31:13)
want us to move to the next important, or wonderful initiative that you are trying to do, which is an award, for kids. why do you want to start this Data to Kids Award? What is the objectives

Alex (31:30)
we started it because we can. before we organized two data visualization awards ⁓ and Project Data to Speak was initially founded as an award.

Natalia Kiseleva (31:44)
adults.

Alex (31:51)
and we know these mechanics and know the process of gathering jewelry, ⁓ project evaluation and promoting the work and we have this expertise and we started this field where we feel ourselves confident.

And this starting point, ⁓ as we see, works very well and helps to promote this project. And we, as Natalie said, we started the pilot with our local community and got this feedback, these insights and realized that really we are doing something

more impactful than just promoting a book. we feel that we are doing the right thing. And now it's still non-profit project for us. And as an author, I think you know that it's not so profitable just selling books, and the sales don't cover our expenses. But

We feel that this way ⁓ can get us to something bigger and going this path we can shape ourselves, find new insights, maybe product insights, maybe business models, but we feel that we are doing the right thing.

and people appreciate this.

Shazeera.Zawawi (33:49)
And can you tell me a bit more about this award, like who is the target, and what kind of awards are you giving away?

Natalia Kiseleva (34:02)
Award now is a process because the line like in two days. So yes, we're aiming at kids like from seven years old to 12 years old. And we have three category like they should put data visualization on any topic they love. But we have three categories like a digital project,

Shazeera.Zawawi (34:07)
Yes.

Natalia Kiseleva (34:26)
drawing by hand project and the material project. And we have these three categories and, you know, on the pilot award on our local community, I thought like kids will just draw a little, they will create something and it will be fun. We will have a community, something warm, beautiful, et cetera. But kids made some gorgeous things. It was so cool, so sparkling and it was that artish. It was interesting.

and everyone and Julius was like, oh my God, it's so cool. And you know, it's so inspiring. Even us adults, it was like a really big, you know, my thoughts and ideas. And I was overwhelmed with all with the result. I think it was really cool. I hope we will have something really cool this year too.

We will share it somewhere because kids make ⁓ so beautiful things from data because they don't have the standards, the patterns, they don't have the limitations. And sometimes you could find really some pearls there. So I love it. I love the process. And yes, during the awards process, we have like a month of the...

Alex (35:17)
Okay.

Shazeera.Zawawi (35:24)
Yeah.

Natalia Kiseleva (35:34)
We have several educational

streams about how to work with data safely, how to make something simple from material data, how to draw data and how to work with data digitally. You asked before that how to grab the kids' attention. We were making bar charts in a game. It was like, my God, one adult person typed me like, my God, it was so involving. Even me was like, waking up, like, what is it?

Shazeera.Zawawi (35:51)
Yes.

Thanks.

Natalia Kiseleva (36:03)
What is it? It's a game? So cool. So yes, it was really like in some Minecraft game. We just go in there, bring in bar charts and it's simple. But for kids, it's just like, wow, involving. So yes, I love the educational stream parts too. You could find it on YouTube or somewhere. Yes, and we have several talks with juries, with some data enthusiasts during the process. So yes, soon we will have the project evaluation process.

Shazeera.Zawawi (36:22)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Natalia Kiseleva (36:33)
And jury will work. Yes, It's so fun because it's a kids project. It's so always like hard to evaluate them.

Shazeera.Zawawi (36:35)
Jury will have a tough time trying to make the selection, no? Yeah, I can imagine that.

Exactly.

How would you handle with the kids that might not get the award or you are planning to give every kid an award? What would be the- Okay. I hope none of the kids are listening to this podcast because then they know, they will know your strategy. But I am curious. there are losers, there are winners. So how are you going to do that?

Natalia Kiseleva (36:53)
I'm... Who knows?

Alex (37:08)
I mean that ⁓ everyone who participates is already a winner, but we have ⁓ also super winners.

Shazeera.Zawawi (37:16)
Winner.

Super winners.

So that's another way to put it. But yeah, it can be a delicate situation sometimes. But I think as adults, we forget that actually children are super resilient than we give them credit for. ⁓ what I would maybe love to see if all this work that has been developed or all the entries of this award

would they be showcased or exhibited somewhere because it could be an inspiration for the other children as well who was not in the award.

Alex (37:56)
course.

Natalia Kiseleva (38:01)
Yes, we will collect all these pieces on our website, like a long list, a short list, and the winners, and we have the projects from the past year. during the years, I hope we will collect a really big and beautiful and sparkling collection. Even now you could go to our website and check the collection from the past year, was gorgeous. And I hope this year we'll add more beautiful projects to our collection. So yes, it's so inspiring. And we want to share some kids and their adults

Shazeera.Zawawi (38:09)
Super winners.

Natalia Kiseleva (38:30)
are describing the process of creation and they make like the photo story about how they make the project and it's so interesting like we brought the sleeves from the park or we grabbed all this stuff from there and the photo, photo, photo. So it's so interesting for adults and for other kids how you know so many articles you could write about it we just were to grab all this time. So it's think it's really nice sometimes just make a video of the process how kids doing something.

Shazeera.Zawawi (38:44)
Amazing. Yeah.

Natalia Kiseleva (38:59)
I think it could really inspire other kids because when adults talking something for kids, it's one thing. But when kids showing something to other kids, it's a different level.

Shazeera.Zawawi (39:02)
Yeah.

Yes.

That's a power of children because they are inspiring the children, us adults as well. Like if you see the work done by the children for me, if I see something they did online, I'm like, what? When I'm their age, can I do that? I'm not so sure. So this is, you know, it's always been interesting to see how the kids nowadays, especially with information at your fingertips.

Alex (39:17)
Okay.

Shazeera.Zawawi (39:35)
They are really

very familiar, very good with technology and what they can accomplish as well ⁓ with all they have, the access that they have. So I think this is going to be super, super cool. So you have the books and you have the award. What would be the future for a movement of children who value, appreciate, and love data?

What would that look like for both of you?

Alex (40:02)
Okay.

Natalia Kiseleva (40:06)
Of course, first thing is like a community creating, of course, like in any situation, in any strange situation, create a community and it could support you in difficult times. Of course, it could always help you because we have a community leader, some right person there. And of course, if you're thinking about like a monetization, a big company, corporation staff built on this little book.

Shazeera.Zawawi (40:07)
Yeah.

Alex (40:07)
Ugh.

Thank

.

Shazeera.Zawawi (40:21)
Yeah.

haha

Natalia Kiseleva (40:34)
Of course, we're trying to invent something, we're thinking about something interesting that will be useful, maybe educational, maybe fun. So yes, we have several ideas based on that, but I think they're still all in process. Maybe Alex

will add something here.

Shazeera.Zawawi (40:51)
Yes, he looked, he had that look.

Alex (40:51)
To be honest, I

don't have a strategy on this point. And we discovering this path. And after this final ceremony, when we will evaluate all the projects, when we will select winners and work with the feedback of others...

we will consider next steps. ⁓ Maybe it will be something world-changing ⁓ or ⁓ maybe we will just continue writing books. ⁓ To be honest, I don't know. ⁓ this is the first time when I'm not thinking big. I'm just being in the moment.

Shazeera.Zawawi (41:42)
You're living in the habit.

That's so nice. That's so cool. I myself, when I see the book, you know, I was even having this idea because this is, well, we're talking about it. This idea is free. Anyone can take it. But basically, I am interested to translate the book into Malay because I think there's not enough resources in Malay that talks about data, for instance. And so this can maybe give more accessibility and space for the book.

in Malaysia. know, Malaysia is a country that's merging, developing. ⁓ We love mathematics. We're good at mathematics and science. And I think a book like the ones that you wrote for kids would have a space there. So I was when I look at the book, was like, can translate.

Alex (42:31)
Last time I visited Kuala

Lumpur, last month.

Natalia Kiseleva (42:35)
I've been

there too. It's a really cool city. Bird Park. my God. So I think it's really a great idea about translation. We're not speaking Malaysian, so somehow I think we shouldn't have done something. Just let's be in touch. I'd love to.

Shazeera.Zawawi (42:38)
Thank you. Thank you. ⁓

I'm very happy

to talk about it because as I told you, I'm also ⁓ building something here in Switzerland and also hopefully in Malaysia. And you're doing somewhere as well in Russia and also in the community, I mean, overall. So it's always nice to collaborate and have a meeting of the minds and see.

Natalia Kiseleva (43:17)
It's completely our...

Shazeera.Zawawi (43:18)
And I love Alex's spirit as well, like living in the moment. And I think, ⁓ yeah, we should do more of that. But since you both are parents, right, and we only focus, we focus a lot on the kids.

So what would you say

Alex (43:36)
you

Shazeera.Zawawi (43:37)
your best advice be to the parents to help them nurture or cultivate their children's love and appreciation for data?

Alex (43:48)
My advice is to find as most simple words to explain their work, what are they doing, and avoid...

technical or hard words and find examples from the world of their kids from cartoons, from music, toys, ⁓ characters and explain in simple words and ⁓ play their job with their kids not work

Shazeera.Zawawi (44:37)
Yes. It's an important word, play. We don't play often nowadays, I think. It's all serious and sometimes it's all business. Play is very important. You're right. You want to add something, Natalia?

Natalia Kiseleva (44:54)
maybe, you know, it's more simple for me because I just tell my little one like, I'm a teacher, I'm a trainer, educator, like, okay, okay, etc. Lecture, but it's a teacher for them. So I'm just teach other people about some cool stuff, about beautiful drawing, about Pai Chi, or and Barney's with a bar chart, how they're cool and useful, how it's important to be friends with them. So yes, you know, my kid.

Shazeera.Zawawi (45:13)
Yeah.

Natalia Kiseleva (45:23)
found some elements that were from my data art project and she began to copy my data art project by herself. It was like, my God. So yes, think kids just will understand something ⁓ because they could see it every day, especially if it's something you bring home and put it everywhere around you.

Shazeera.Zawawi (45:37)
That's nice.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Natalia Kiseleva (45:53)
So maybe when my little one became bigger, she will have a more complicated question and I should invent something more problematic, more complex. But for now, I'm just like, I'm a teacher.

Shazeera.Zawawi (46:08)
We'll deal with the questions when it comes. For now, live as Alex said, live in the moment. Enjoy playing with them and the questions now. But this is really, to me, very uplifting to see the work that both of you are doing to enhance children's appreciation, skills, knowledge about data. It's not something that a lot of people are doing. So to me,

Natalia Kiseleva (46:11)
Yep, yep.

Shazeera.Zawawi (46:37)
This is amazing and keep doing what you're doing. And thank you so much for our conversation today. And I really, really wish all the best for the award. can't wait to see the final who are the super winners and who are the winners.

Alex (46:49)
Okay.

Natalia Kiseleva (46:55)
Thank you. Thank you for inviting.

It was so warm welcome in here. Thank you.

Shazeera.Zawawi (47:00)
ours. And who knows, maybe, you we can have another conversation, you know, about other things. Sparkle, whimsical, you know, fatherhood, motherhood. I mean, ⁓ we seldom talk about this, right, in the context of data. And I think it's super interesting to sometimes bring that into the conversation. So thank you to both of you,

Alex (47:00)
you

Natalia Kiseleva (47:05)
We should do it! Absolutely!

Shazeera.Zawawi (47:23)
person behind data to kids, the amazing book, Christian the Magic Chart. So I'm just going to say again, well done for what you did. It was a really, really good effort.

Natalia Kiseleva (47:38)
Thank you, thank you so much. 

Alex (47:40)
Thank you.